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boyscout



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PostSubject: passover again   Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:27 pm

http://www.t-cog.co.uk/Are_There_Eight_Days_of_Unleavened_Bread.htm
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:30 pm

We observed the Passover quite well.
We passovered the hard questions.
We passovered the gatherings.
We passovered Passover.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:00 pm

OK, what are the hard questions? Maybe we can write them down next time.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:05 am

Was the last supper a Passover dinner?
Was He nailed on the cross on Passover?
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:20 pm

John 19:31

My understanding is Yeshua was nailed on preparation day and was buried just as the Jews were eating their passover dinner.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:18 pm

How about the other 3 gospels?
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:44 pm

There is reason to believe that when the other gospels mentioned "first day of unleavened bread" or "then came the passover" that it was not actually the passover yet. In Matt 26:17, disciples were still asking where to prepare the passover. Also, there is no mention of them eating lamb. So they have prepared the passover, but not eaten it yet. We know the day after Yeshua's death was the special sabbath and the "feast day".

What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:19 pm

That was what I thought too but the more I read the context the less convincing it becomes:
1. Matt 26:17 says on the first of the festival of unleavened bread (Nisan 14?) and Matt 26:20 says when evening came (beginning of Nisan 15?)
2. Matt 26:30 they went out after supper - is it something corresponding to Deuteronomy 16:7?
3. Mark 14:12-26 - same.
4. Luke 22:7 - Nisan 14 or 15?
5. Luke 22:15 - "this" Passover. Greek Lexicon has "this one, visibly present here"

And I realize even the Jews are not in agreement on which day.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:04 pm

boyscout wrote:
That was what I thought too but the more I read the context the less convincing it becomes:
1. Matt 26:17 says on the first of the festival of unleavened bread (Nisan 14?) and Matt 26:20 says when evening came (beginning of Nisan 15?)
2. Matt 26:30 they went out after supper - is it something corresponding to Deuteronomy 16:7?
3. Mark 14:12-26 - same.
Matt 26:5 - The priests said they won't capture/kill Yeshua on the feast day (Nisan 15), so the night they capture him should not be start of Nisan 15.
Matt 26:17 - Disciples asked where to prepare passover, so it was before passover. If the above point is correct, it is not Nisan 14, so it could be Nisan 13.

boyscout wrote:

4. Luke 22:7 - Nisan 14 or 15?
Can't be Nisan 15, because form verse 8, it is still before passover.
If Nisan 14, then they ate the passover that night, and Yeshua would have been captured and crucified on Nisan 15, which would not make sense because it is the feast day and the special sabbath. So I say Nisan 13.

So, in other words, even if you read just one gospel book, it doesn't make sense for the last supper to be end of Nisan 14 (start of Nisan 15), because Nisan 15 is the special sabbath. Contradicts with Matt 26:5, Matt 27:62, Mark 14:2, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54


boyscout wrote:

5. Luke 22:15 - "this" Passover. Greek Lexicon has "this one, visibly present here"
Not sure.. you have to ask someone who's Greek to know if it is significant.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:42 am

Matthew 26:17 - Nisan 13 is not the first day of the feast.
Luke 22:7 - the usage of the "day" is between sunrise and sunset and is the day when "the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed". Nissan 13 is not the day the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:22 pm

boyscout wrote:
Matthew 26:17 - Nisan 13 is not the first day of the feast.
OK, but it cannot be Nisan 15 because it was before passover, according to the same verse.
It cannot be Nisan 14. Otherwise, Yeshua would have been captured on the feast day (Matt 26:5).

So I'm saying "first day of unleavened bread" in 26:17 cannot be the actual first of the seven days in the feast (which would be Nisan 15, which would contradict the same verse).

Do you have a different explanation?

boyscout wrote:
Luke 22:7 - the usage of the "day" is between sunrise and sunset and is the day when "the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed". Nissan 13 is not the day the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

Verse 8 - first day of unleavened bread is also not the day on which they kill the passover, so it is not Nisan 15. Again, it can be Nisan 14, but that would mean Yeshua was captured on the feast day and it also contradicts with 23:54.

Luke 23:54 - "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on."
So the day Yeshua was captured was Nisan 14 (the preparation). He died at twilight, right before the sabbath (Nisan 15). This fulfills the prophecy with perfect timing.

So again, only way I can make it work is that was Nisan 13. Luke 22:7 - "then came the day" could be "to come".

I would like to hear a different explanation if you have one.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:27 pm

My only explanation at this point in time is, like I said earlier, there were two different understanding of the evening of Nissan 14 which led to two "celebrations".
I would like to think that Yeshua and the 12 celebrated the true one and He died on the cross on the mistaken one for the mistaken ones.
I'd like to does not mean I'm correct.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:11 pm

Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54 all state that it is the day of preparation.

If Luke 22:7 was right before passover, it would be very late to be looking for a place to prepare (verse 9).

Luke 22:15-16 could mean: I desire to eat this passover with you before I suffer, but I will not eat of it until it be fulfilled.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:19 pm

The following passages don't look coherent though:
Luke 22:7-14 vs 23:54
Mark 14:12-17 vs 15:42
Matthew 26:17-20 vs 27:62
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:13 am

So those verses mention "first day of unleavened bread", but they were still deciding where to celebrate, which means it must be actually before the feast and not the official first day of unleavened bread. So it seems like with "feast" or "passover", they might be referring to the feast days general period and not the precise day.

I probably won't convince you, but if your explanation is right, then Yeshua would not have fulfilled the prophecy at the exact timing, which I find difficult to believe He would do it that way.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:38 am

Not my explanation but it's one of the many explanations given on the net.

For me it's just hard to understand "now/and (G1161 or G2532) the first of unleavened bread" is not the actual first day of unleavened bread but a day before the feast.
The writers could have used the phrase "before (G4250) the first of unleavened bread".

So the last supper was not a Passover meal?

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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:25 pm

That's the thing. Matt 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7 contradict themselves. It says first day of unleavened bread, but they are still finding a place to celebrate passover. From Deu 23:5-6, passover is before the feast of unleavened bread, so the day in those verses cannot be the "first day" as in Deu 23:7, which is AFTER passover. The only way I can explain it is by "first day" they mean the day they removed leaven, which unofficially starts their feast celebration.

I would like to think last supper was not passover because Yeshua died on passover, so last supper is day before passover and first supper when they have made preparations for the feast.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:26 pm

That would be the best answer.
But are we to remember Him twice - one on the day before Passover by means of "doing" the last supper and the other on Passover by (I don't know what should be done)?
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:35 am

I don't know. By eating the passover?

"This bread" and "this cup" could be talking about the bread and cup for the entire feast but Paul seems to extend it to every meal.
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PostSubject: Re: passover again   Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:56 pm

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