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boyscout



Number of posts : 332
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PostSubject: Micro management   Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:04 am

2 Kings 23:15-16 Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin—even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the Lord proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.

That is, in accordance with 1 Kings 13:1-2 in which He foretold that person by name of Josiah.

Isaiah 44:28 & 45:1, He foretold the king of Persia by name of Cyrus who would relieve Judah some 200 years later.

These two certainly not poetic.

How detail would He go?








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t



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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:53 am

Yahweh has power and control over all things. That does not mean he has to consistently micro manage every instance of everything.

I see that Yahweh established the laws of nature that govern how things work. That's how I read Proverbs 8:27-29, Job 38:11 or Job 38:33. If your body temperature is low, your immune system won't work and you'll get sick. That is governed by the laws established by Yahweh. If I swim in ice water and get sick, I cannot say that Yahweh micro managed my sickness. He has power to defy those laws such that, for example, Yeshua can walk on water, but that does not mean every time someone falls into water that Yahweh is micro managing that to happen.

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boyscout



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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:08 pm

My point is, His sovereignty and omnipotence is quite often interpreted as micro management. How far could He reign?
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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:02 pm

He is capable of "micro management" and I don't think we disagree on that. I disagree that when something happens, He must be micro managing.
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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:11 am

That little something is where we start thinking.

Does He send gentle breeze on a hot and humid day?
Does He send rain at the right time - and at the worst time for that matter?
Are accidents really accidents?
They are just too much for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:08 am

If someone is careless, they shouldn't blame Him for causing the accident.

If it rains, we don't know whether it is raining for our good or for someone else's misfortune.

I just don't like it when people conclude He must be doing something for such a reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:58 pm

Speaking of accidents Psalms 73 comes to mind and unlike the psalmist I do slip, over and over and over again.

And speaking of slipping, 1 Peter 2:8 says ....and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

Looks like disobeying the message is no accident.


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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:55 pm

Bro, I'm not quite clear what you mean (and what we're debating in the first place). Can you explain in simpler terms if you think we have differing views?

Psalms 73:
v2-3 - psalmist almost slipped because he was envious at the wicked - doesn't "slip" mean falling in sin and isn't it the psalmist own doing for almost slipping?
v17 - isn't this a good example of not understanding why He does/allows certain things or is not mindful of those things? i.e. the prosperity of the wicked is inconsequential because their end is destruction

1 Peter 2:8 - older versions don't have "because", instead disobeying the word is the stumble. so we're getting into predestination, which I don't dispute, but that is different from micro management and that little something.
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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:40 pm

I agree with the argument that if someone is careless, they should not blame Him for causing the accident.

But I think we have different views on "accidents".
So I used the "worst" accident - i.e. falling into sins.

Unfortunately temptations are no accidents. They always come at the right moment. The only defense is be alert and to use the Word, not just the Word but also the relation with Him and the understanding of His Word cf verse 17.

So in other words, I believe accidents are no accidents.
Now if we look at smaller accidents, for example literally slip and fall, do they always happen at the right moment when one is not paying attention and does not have the "know"?
And as we look at smaller and smaller accidents...
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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:55 am

OK indeed I differ regarding literal accidents because there are things that just seem to happen at random and the result seems inconsequential so I don't see why He has to "taint" it. I believe He may interfere and "taint" the result for things that matter.

Do you agree that He established the laws of the universe such that things operate on their own, such as the way rolling dice are governed by physical laws or a plant grows according to biological laws, or do you think He has to manually control these things? Because thinking this way seems to belittle His ability.

Ecclesiastes 9:11: "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

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PostSubject: Re: Micro management   Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:07 pm

If I understand you correctly, you believe His is so great that He sets things and laws up so everything runs accordingly and He only intervenes on important matters.
I, on the other hand, believe He is so great that He takes care of the biggest and the smallest matters.
Guess it's just a matter of whether we believe in butterfly effect.
Throwing dice is a terrific example of such.
Weather is another.
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