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boyscout



Number of posts : 345
Age : 105
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PostSubject: Do not judge   Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:46 pm

Luke 6:37-42
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. "Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return." And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

With this, and only this, in mind:
a. Do not preach the gospel of repentance for forgiveness of sins because it's not right to judge others as sinners when we are all sinners. Rather, preach love and love only because love covers a multitude of sins.
b. Do not question any teaching because we are not without fault ourselves. Just learn to accept for we know God will judge one day.

Does it sound all too familiar?

On the other hand, if "do not judge" is the golden rule something is off in the Bible but then I'm not judging:

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

2 Timothy 2:25-26
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

James 5:19-20
My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

Or may be these verses are exclusive to those called by God to judge? It also sounded familiar.

Or may be we have to learn to be gentle as Yeshua?
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t



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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:28 pm

Maybe it's as simple as what is said in Luke 6 - those judging others are not seeing the log in their own eye, nor are they receptive when others try to point it out to them.

Maybe we judge with our emotions/anger/opinions instead of truth and facts. What did Carmen (cousin) do wrong last sabbath? Why is she judged with the rest of us? Did not Mavis want to sing hymns? Am I assumed to not want to sing or pray or read Genesis because I did not bring it up? Did we not wish for more sharing in previous weeks, more honesty towards each other in describing our thoughts? Dannie was making an effort and didn't even know what was going on. Why was he condemned? Why were we collectively condemned as if we are single-mindedly disobedient while you and your wife are the only ones making an effort?

Maybe when we judge, it is more to let our frustration out on others to make them feel bad than to restore and correct their ways.
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boyscout



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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Who's judging here? It's a rhetorical question.

Does it mean one has to be flawless in each and every way before he can question the accountability of others? And therefore only Christ could speak?

What is in the context?

If one quotes the verses when being questioned, is he himself not judging, that whoever questions him is a hypocrite, that he himself is also a hypocrite?

Does one not know the definition of a hypocrite?

Were the believers in the church of Corinth all flawless, that they are qualified to judge? What to judge if they are flawless?

Were Paul, Peter, John, James and for that matter the old testament prophets including Moses all flawless?

Why speaking the heart has, if not always, been interpreted as being hateful?

The Bible teaches 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.'

But what seems to work is, rebuke your neighbor, seek what he has done wrong on other things, when your neighbor rebukes you on something and additionally, question your neighbor's love.

Now to answer your questions:

But before you read my answers, do you remember what my manner was on that day? Was it offensive to you? How?

Carmen did no wrong. She just witnessed Christians honoring the Sabbath with this attitude towards the end of the day when there were many complaints but no solution was offered. Who judged her?

Mavis said she felt bad that we went downstairs to sing hymns alone so she came down. Only she would know whether she wanted to sing hymns or she just wanted to be a good sport.

You? Do you assume that I assume you of all these things that you assumed on that day? You used the word "collectively" elsewhere in your post. So do you consider it collectively or personally?

What is the question on the wish for more sharing in previous weeks, more honesty towards each other in describing our thoughts? Were all not brutally honest at the end of the meeting and especially my wife at dinner in an angry manner which she later apologized in the group? If you are not content with the apology and want more, just tell what further compensation she has to make. I for one am not content with just an apology so I kept questioning her why she did what she did- which made her regret and sad but somehow I am still not truly satisfied because I did not want to end the fellowship this way. I wanted to end it with a last supper with a good memory of everyone in smiles.
My question for you is, is it wrong to express anger when one is truly angry despite the action might not be appropriate? Is it not right to be angry regardless of reasons?

Dannie condemned? Do you think this is a correct word to describe? I don't know. I was busy eating until I realized that my wife was lashing out. What did she say that made you think Dannie is condemned?

Now my other question for you: What did my wife say and what did I say on that day, to make you think that we are the only ones making an effort?
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:17 pm

Re: judging, the church is supposed to judge on the testimony of 2-3 witnesses (Deu 19:15), and I don't remember that happening.

I could be wrong and I could have misunderstood your first post completely. I thought you were justifying what happened that night, saying it is OK to judge in that matter.

If you are asking my honest view - yelling at the table and running out, and then my second-hand account of you saying something like "see you, maybe never" seemed like "collectively" judging/condemning everyone at the table. All the quotes in your first post are about attempting to restore the brother/sister rather than to condemn.
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:38 am

I guess the rhetoric question needed to be answered. Who's judging in the gathering i.e. before the out lash at the restaurant?

Why would the farewell, if you recall and quoted accurately here and was all I said, make you think it's judging,?

It was clear to me towards the end of the meeting that it has become meaningless to go on. The out lashing was totally unexpected and inappropriate but helped to end what should have been ended long time ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:36 pm

Who's judging? Do you think your wife was being judged, or you were being judged, or what? Because to this day I don't really know what happened.

At the dinner, you mutterred something on the lines of "its better to be regular friends and just have dinner". What was that supposed to mean?

No one was smiling at the dinner. I sat across from E and we barely had an awkward word. We started eating because we saw you started to eat.

There is a thread about love.

Tell you something. I strained my relationship with my entire family. Sure, that does not mean I love the lord, but it's still something. I tell them my closest family is my fellowship. You think I just like to hang out with this fellowship? No - we don't really get along that well and I have to put up with all the bad characters just like you all have to put up with me and my bluntness, disrespect for others, arrogance, whatever you want to call it.

Let's be clear, I'm not the one to always bring up the "family" aspect.

To hear something on the lines of farewell, or we are done, or that you have past experience with saying bye with similar groups and it is nothing extraordinary -- not the first time, it's a big slap on the face. Would you say that to your brothers who you watch super bowl with?

Talk about family and love and quote scripture?





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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:54 pm

Do you remember you are the one saying me and my wife judging and condemning right here in the forum on other threads?
You probably have missed the laughter and smiles when we were waiting for the table. The reason I asked somewhere else if me and my wife have to act according to the mood swing of the group.
It's better to claim to be friends than claiming we are a group of same faith because we all want different directions. I'm not judging which direction is right or which one is wrong. I'm merely stating the fact that we all want different directions. It's no use to put up with anyone or compromise just to stay together. Too bad some have been putting up with me and my wife and I think it's good now that we are out of the way.
I don't know what you meant by family or slap on the face.
Yes I did tell my brothers to stop seeing each other so nothing is new to me.


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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:52 pm

Judging - this got out of hand. Scripture says 2-3 witnesses and to restore the brother/sister. I never said not to point out faults or never judge. The lashing out on everyone, saying no one wanted to pray or sing, seemed like condemning, do you agree? That was all. You leaving with your wife and writing a bunch of posts about our wrongs gave the appearance of you supporting the lashing out and us deserving of condemnation. That was all.

I did not want to dwell on who judging who and also events already past, I was just pointing out the lashing out at the entire table was undeserved. To this day, I do not understand what I did wrong that day to deserve all this. I did not need to reply to your threads but I thought I'd let you know my thoughts. Does it offend you and should I shut up instead?

"It's good now we are out of the way"
-- just prior to the incident, we had been talking about speaking the truth one to another. Effort was shown that day. Fact and frustrating part is I agree with most you say. You happy? I thought we were finally making some progress - yea we don't read scripture enough, we don't pray together etc etc but can't we work on it? I just get offended when you talk like something is my fault when I'm giving an effort, just as you would be offended.

The slap in the face is you saying something like the above. There was a time when I found it really hard to meet but I thought we agree on the truth. I call you a brother and you just tell me to get lost on multiple occasions? That is the slap on the face.
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:17 am

I never supported the out lashing.
She apologized long while ago. I know apology means nothing so I asked what else she has to do to compensate. Looks like nothing would satisfy.
I'm sorry I even show up tonight.
No. I'm not coming back here.
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:15 am

Excuse me, what did I do wrong now?
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:05 am

I apologize to have said I'm leaving here. After all it was I who suggested to share our thoughts here and you were the only one showing up. I should have appreciated that.

I am angry this time because it wasn't I who lashed out at the restaurant and somehow I was lumped together with the action - and - on one hand you said you didn't want to dwell on the past but on the other you were still questioning why she did this to you. If you think my wife was judging and that you are not satisfied with her apology then please direct your questions and your requests of restitution to her.
Yes I left with the wife. Did one expect me to stay when my other half was leaving whether she was right or wrong?
No, I shouldn't have spoken, if I did, on her behalf.

To address the slap on the face remark:
Please show me where I told you to get lost, without resorting to that one ancient history when I believe it was forgiven and tried to forget by all parties, and, most importantly, where I did on multiple times.
To say it's good to just be friends, to me, is very different from telling someone to get lost - the former keeps a relationship with enough space to be comfortable while the latter breaks. The former shows respect but the latter does not. However, I do have doubts whether we can go on to be friends without the bonding of the faith. Perhaps that's where the "see you but may be never" or something along the lines came from. Perhaps I watched one too many chick flicks saying such.
No, this group is special and different from others which never went that far in the faith although far enough to hurt. It's not fair to compare either way.

To address the making progress remark:
We all witnessed multiple progresses which ended up in different directions. We spent enough time to talk about that in most Sabbaths and it has been wearing us out. We all need space to think about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Do not judge   Sat May 07, 2016 7:19 pm

I do not need any restitution from anyone. If you read my earlier responses, they were in reply to you and what you posted. You writing a bunch of posts after the incident gave the impression that you are either angry, defending your wife, or piling on. It's hard to guess what's on your mind. This was what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. I probably shouldn't have replied the way I did but like I said, 1. no one was going to reply except me, so I wanted to offer my view to have some balance, and 2. I was also frustrated at all the politics and lack of "goodness" in our group.

Regarding the "slap on the face", that's what I was saying - that we have not much of a friendship and our group doesn't really get along that well. I thought our relationship was on the foundation of faith and that's why it has been able to withstand. Not that it still bothers me, but to answer your question, you said "see you, maybe never", then you wrote "it's good that we are out of the way".
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