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boyscout



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PostSubject: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:47 am

Hebrews 9:11-12 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Is His blood not sufficient to cleanse all sins and that man must add his own work?
Now if there is sin (if ever there is one) that could not be cleansed by His blood, would going back to the weak and useless regulations help?

Hebrews 7:18-19 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless. For the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

If we cannot draw near to God by this better hope, i.e. through Christ, can we draw near by fasting?

Hebrews 10:1-2 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshippers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer felt guilty for their sins.

Is fasting a form of sacrifices?
Does fasting cleanse ones sins better than His blood?
Does fasting remove our guilt?
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:05 am

Hebrews 10:19-
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:27 pm

I'm with you. I don't think fasting is to cleanse one's sin or remove one's guilt.

The verse you brought up is interesting.
"since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place"
"Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful"
"let us encourage one another and all the more as you see the Day approaching"

The day of atonement in future tense?
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:38 pm

It's good to know your fasting has nothing to do with sin nor guilt.

The day of atonement the judgment day? Perhaps.
I have thought of the commemoration a joyous day for believers because sins have been atoned for. I thought I was the only crazy person on earth thinking this way. Turns out a few wackos have the same thought on cyberspace. Does it make me right? Not really.

On the other hand, I "despise" the thought of rehearsing fasting on the judgment day because we will see our loves ones - family, relatives and friends - suffering in the tribulation or into the lake of fire and we shall lose our appetite.
My thought is, we won't.

The Messiah said: "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
The Messiah also said: “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.  Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me" and "brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

God is love. His love for man is far more than our love for anybody. However, His love for impenitent ones will be over at the end of days.
We have the opportunity to preach the true gospel from now till the end. We will have no regret if we do our best but many will turn against us during the process.
Would a believer have unbelieving family, relatives and friends to mourn for at the end?
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:34 pm

The day of atonement as a joyous day for believers - scripturally that does not seem to make sense for me. The law says it's a day to afflict yourselves or your souls. Whoever does not shall be cut off. The ones who will keep this are the true believers.

I don't know what will be the fulfillment. I just think there is one and it will make sense.

Feast of tabernacles is when
- the harvest is gathered (Deu 16:13)
- we are to be joyous (Deu 16:14)
- Elohim will tabernacle with men (Rev 21:2)
- He will wipe away all tears (Rev 21:4)

I'm just speculating. But going off that, the harvest is not brought in until tabernacles.

Rev 15 before the seven last plagues, there are some standing on a sea of glass (v2). The temple of the tabernacle of testimony was opened in v5, and no man was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues are fulfilled (v8).

When YHWH struck Egypt with the seven last plagues, his people were spared but were still in Egypt (Ex 8:22). I don't think they would have celebrated during the plagues.
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:00 pm

It depends on whether one believes Yeshua has fulfilled the day of atonement and how one interprets the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews for Christians has explained in the following link:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Yom_Kippur/yom_kippur.html

The Messiah said: Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
Scripturally should His followers deny themselves everyday and not be joyous?
On the other hand, the scriptures teach that His followers should be joyous.
How could one deny himself and yet be joyous? I hope this question explains the meaning of being joyous.

11/15: guess I didn't address the "law" part of your response. I believe the Hebrews writer gave a very good answer:
Hebrews 7:12-19
For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Does Hebrews 7:12-19 contradict to what the Messiah said in Matthew 5:17-18?

11/18: a few more of your points I need to address:
a. Comparing
Leviticus 23:29 Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people.
with
Luke 9:23 ...Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
It's the same Word of God who gave the commandment in Leviticus 23:29 gave this "new" commandment in Luke 9:23.
If fasting is the mean to deny oneself, shouldn't His followers fast everyday?
One should also consider if denying oneself means one should not be joyous.
b. You said "The ones who will keep this are the true believers".
I have asked previously why one should afflict himself when the Lamb has afflicted Himself for our sins and the purpose of such. My understanding to your responses is, one who keeps this are the true believers because the law requires it. Do I not understand you correctly?
You said and quoted feast of tabernacles is when we are to be joyous Deuteronomy 16:14.
I said previously elsewhere that the feast of tabernacles is fulfilled in the Messiah.
Your response there, if I remember correctly, is that the feasts have not been fulfilled or at least not completely, which I can accept the latter.
c. Revelation 15 I see what you are saying but being joyous does not imply celebration (the way we understand celebration). Just what were they thinking when they partook the Passover lamb and when they plundered the Egyptians?
On the other hand, Revelation 15 cannot be taken at face value. The book of Hebrews said "let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need" and "let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."
I'm not saying Revelation 15 is to be ignored. Is it the translation or is it English grammar that it all has to be written in past tense?
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:24 am

Thanks. I need to look more into Hebrews and the link you shared.

But I think we agree more than we disagree. If you are saying that we are to have joy in YHWH in spite of being afflicted on the day of atonement because that's when the elect is atoned for and sealed, then I don't really have a problem with that. I do not however think that the command to afflict your souls (which I interpret to include fasting) has been done away with.

Here are my thoughts based on my current understanding:

- My current view is quite simple. The law says to afflict your souls, so by default we are to do it regardless of whether we understand the meaning. I do not think the fall feasts have been fulfilled completely because those are YHWH's "appointed times" and I expect there to be a fulfillment on those exact dates based on what happened on the earlier feasts. I do think Yeshua's dwelling among his people (possibly born exactly on first of tabernacles and circumcised on the eighth) and his atonement as partial fulfillments, but not complete. Furthermore, there are a few things related to the feasts that I do not think have been fulfilled, such as putting out the scapegoat, gathering of the final harvest, and YHWH making his tabernacle with man.

- "afflict" from Lev 23:29 and "deny" from Luke 9:23 do not seem to be equivalent.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6031&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G533&t=KJV
The former is to afflict/humble/depress, as in Egypt afflicted Israel or humbling oneself to YHWH.
The latter is deny/forget/ affirm no acquaintance or connection with, as in Peter denying Yeshua.

- My understanding of "deny yourself and take up your cross daily", based on Luke 9:23-27 and Matt 10:37-39, is it seems to be in relation to not loving the world and the things of the world. We are to forget and affirm no acquaintance to this life, and take up our cross and follow him. Based on this point and the last, I do not think that would mean fasting everyday, whereas I do think Lev 23:29 includes fasting.

- "Does Hebrews 7:12-19 contradict to what the Messiah said in Matthew 5:17-18?"
Isn't Hebrews talking about Yeshua as being the fulfillment of the levitical priesthood and sacrifices? As for the commandment of afflicting yourselves and keeping the day of atonement as the sabbath of sabbaths, am I understanding you correctly that you are saying it has been fulfilled as part of sacrifices?

- "The ones who will keep this are the true believers"
What I mean is that the true believers are the ones who will be afflicting themselves on the coming day of atonement, not that afflicting oneself makes that person a true believer. The rest of the world will be eating and drinking or doing something else. From the law, those who don't afflict themselves will be cut off, so it is not the sinners who afflict themselves, but the followers. I don't really know what this means, but maybe this is one of the shadows of the reality.

- "Just what were they thinking when they partook the Passover lamb and when they plundered the Egyptians?"
I guess maybe fear mixed with anticipation.

- Rev 15, Hebrews
I don't really know how things fit together. Are you saying that "no man was able to enter into the temple" cannot be taken literally since Hebrews implies followers have already been sprinkled with blood by the high priest? What about "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Yeshua"? Doesn't that go with Revelation in that no one but Yeshua has yet entered the heavenly temple?
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:16 pm

a. To afflict one's soul on the day of atonement is not a law (H8451 torah) but rather a statute or ordinance (H2708 chuqqah).
Question: which part of the "chuqqah" is done away with and which part is not?

b. Again to fast is man's (re)action to the command of afflicting one's soul. Although the command to afflict one's soul is mandatory at the time (I will explain below why it's not perpetual), is fasting the one and only action to afflict one's soul? Did this command apply to everyone including the sick, the old, the weak, the nursing mothers and children without prejudice?

c. Everlasting (H5769 owlam): some examples of ordinances, which I briefly mentioned elsewhere, were to be everlasting but are they?
i. slaughtering and eating the passover lamb and putting it's blood at the doorframes (don't need a temple to do that).
ii. Aaron and his sons service at the tabernacle (don't need a temple to do that).
iii. the Israelites were to occupy the promised land (it was a promise to occupy the land forever, not every so often).
iv. oil and bread to set before the Lord (don't need a temple to do that).

d. Whether or not H6031 in Leviticus 23:29 and G533 in Luke 9:23 are of same meaning is arguable so I give you the benefit of the doubt (for now).
So H6031 means afflict or humble or depress.
i. What is the significance of Isaiah 53:4-6 to believers?
Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
ii. When the Messiah said blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven and blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth, did He mean those who are poor in spirit and are meek for one day in a year? I believe it's more a life style.
iii. If the Israelites denied themselves in the sense of G533 but did not fast in the sense of H6031, did they offend the ordinance?

e. Hebrews 7:12-19 yes, I meant to say the sacrifice portion, including afflicting oneself, is fulfilled.

f. True believers: my view is that true believers should eventually come to understand that the Messiah was afflicted for their sins once and for all and to live not for themselves.

g. new point: the ordinance of "afflicting one's soul" was not on Exodus, Numbers nor Deuteronomy. Nehemiah neglected to record or observe on the 10th day of the seventh month but rather on the 24th of the month, not according to the ordinance but out of the urge to confess their sins. Does it tell us something?

11/25: The word "afflict" in Leviticus 16:31 in Septuagint Bible is G5013. The same word is used quite a few times in the New Testament including Matthew 18:4 which says "whosoever therefore shall humble (G5013)himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." There is not a hint in this verse, as well as the others, of fasting. Therefore, either the Septuagint translation is not accurate or Leviticus 16:31 was not about fasting.
In fact, Leviticus 16:31, 23:27, 29 and 32 were about afflicting one's soul rather than one's body. So why has it become a law in physical fasting?

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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:53 pm

a. I believe none. If you have a differing view, would like to hear.

b. The law hangs on the commandments love YHWH and love your neighbour. Most people most of the time can fast 24 hours without a problem. When not physically able to, love supersedes the statute.

c. I'm not sure but maybe they are everlasting in the sense that they were the shadows, but the reality is here and it is indeed everlasting. So depends on whether you believe "afflict yourselves" has been fulfilled. If you think it is, then the question is whether to "afflict yourselves" at all, not just whether to fast.

d. By your own admission, the equivalent of "afflict" in Greek would be G5013.

More to come.
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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:29 am

Ordinance H2708: If none is taken away then it's a transgression to miss any of them. I'm afraid we transgress much when we do a search on H2708 in the bible, even if we only search the everlasting (H5769) ones.

For the Torah (H8451):
Note 1: The ten commandments inscribed by god Himself was put inside the ark of covenant while the remaining part of the Torah was put beside the ark as a witness against the Israelites.
Note 2: The Messiah said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law (G3551) or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Note 3: The writer of Hebrews said "For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also."

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PostSubject: Re: forgiveness of sins and fasting   Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:52 am

Leviticus 23:27 The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny (H6031) yourselves, and present a food offering (H801) to the Lord.

Offering made by fire unto the Lord (H801): why is not practised?
Is Deuteronomy 12:13-14 the reason?
Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

Is "the place the Lord will choose" limited to the temple?
The answer is clear when one knows offerings were made in the tabernacle and at other places before the temple was built.
In fact, both Abel and Noah made burnt offerings pleasing to Yahweh way before the nation of Israel and the ark of the covenant existed.
On the other hand, Yahweh spoke through Isaiah, Amos and Malachi that He despised His peoples' offerings because they didn't offer with the right attitude.
It is never the location but all about the heart of the people.

Yahushua said in John 14:23 ...if anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

If one obeys Yahushua the word then no doubt Yahweh dwells and is pleased with him so what stopped him from making burnt offering?

If he does not make burnt offerings according to torah then does he really obey His words?
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