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 Rocket does not work in space

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boyscout



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PostSubject: Rocket does not work in space   Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:55 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8IRFSPLV60

I just added the following comment to this youtube video:

You may do a more credible proof by replacing the piece of paper with a plastic bag which is big enough to contain the whole volume of gas in the balloon. Remove any air in the bag (a poor man's vacuum) and seal the open end of bag to balloon opening. Open the end of the balloon. the gas will go into the bag and the balloon would not move a bit.
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t



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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:26 pm

Each of those experiments actually supports rockets working rather than not. I'm not trying to support either side. I just want to help you with the science.

Experiment #1:
The balloon ("the rocket") moved in the opposite direction on the axis (let's call this the x-axis) of the expelled air.

Experiment #2:
The balloon/rocket did not move on the x-axis. Why? Because the expelled air hit the piece of paper on the x-axis, producing an opposite force to the one on the balloon itself. Since the piece of paper is taped to the balloon, it is attached to the "rocket" and is part of the rocket, thus the rocket did not move on the x-axis. HOWEVER, the air escaped in other directions, and that actually propelled the rocket in other directions. The line was what prevented the rocket as a whole (balloon + paper) from actually moving in those directions, making it swirl instead.

Experiment #3 (your version):
If you are able to perform such an experiment where you have a plastic bag that's significantly bigger than the balloon such that the balloon has enough room to move inside it, and it's not touching or obstructing the balloon's movement, and you open the end of the balloon, I'm quite sure the balloon moves. The result in experiment #1 does not depend on whether the system is a vacuum or not. If the balloon is at equilibrium and you open one end of it, the air moving towards that end no longer applies a force on the balloon, so the balloon naturally moves in the opposite direction.

If you are interested in the rocket equation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation
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boyscout



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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:11 pm

Not answering your post but rather putting forth another question before I forget:

According to Wikipedia, the Solar system is traveling at an average speed of 828,000 km/h i.e. the earth is travelling (falling?) at the same speed while the moon is 828,000+/-3683 km/hr. How this speed is calculated is another story but what is keeping Apollo 11 on it's track to the moon and the command module around the moon i.e. not affected by or the ability to overcome this tremendous speed after leaving the earth's gravity? The pulling power of the planets in the Solar system?

To answer your post:
Experiment #2, according to the author, was to refute the idea that rocket does not require outside air pressure to provide thrust i.e. the somewhat compressed air inside the balloon would push it to go in a different direction regardless of the surrounding.
a. The force of the exhaust does not go 100% onto the attached paper as quite a portion is diverted sideways. In theory (that outside pressure does not affect the thrust of the balloon) the balloon should somewhat move i.e. air pressure exerts on the inside wall of balloon is bigger than that on the surface of the paper.
b. The argument that the exhaust exerts a force on the paper which is attached to the balloon and kept it from moving is the proof that outside pressure does count, whether in the form of air, water, or in this case, paper. If the paper is in the form of a cup (paper cup?) and surround the exhaust end of the balloon, the balloon would go the other direction.
c. The flaw of this experiment is the paper size is way too big which created drag. If the paper is rigid (thick cardboard) and is just the same size as the exhaust of the balloon would the balloon move? How about just a little smaller or bigger than the exhaust of the balloon?
Experiment#3 no, I want a plastic bag just big enough, to be able to bag all the air from the balloon, with no air inside itself, connected and concealed to the exhausted end of the balloon. If the balloon moves, it will prove outside air pressure does not affect thrust.

The Tsiolkovsky rocket equation has been argued to death in many silly forums. I'd like to see experiments which a layman can perform.
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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:34 am

Re: velocity of solar system, it doesn't factor into the equation because the rocket's velocity is relative to that of the earth. It doesn't matter if the initial velocity is zero or a zillion times faster than 828,000, and it doesn't need to be known. The rocket never does away with the initial velocity - there is just a small offset on that velocity. If you and I are on a high speed train, as long as the ride is smooth and straight we can play ping pong on the train, and it wouldn't matter the speed of the train. And this has nothing to do with gravity, just relative velocity as well as Newton's first law.

Experiment #2
a. What I'm saying is, if you understand vector forces, 100% of the x-axis vector force of the exhaust was blocked by the paper and that's why the balloon did not move at all on the x-axis. However, the exhaust was diverted to other directions, and that's why the balloon did in fact move in those directions. This is exactly how it should work in theory and has nothing to do with external air pressure.

b. Since the paper is taped to the balloon it is part of the "rocket" and not an outside pressure. If you push a car one way and the opposite way with the same force, of course it doesn't move. If you replaced the paper with a paper cup, I actually still expect no movement on the x-axis.

c. The flaw of the experiment seems to be that the author does not realize the paper is part of the rocket. If you have a cardboard instead and it's the same size or smaller than the exhaust, as long as the cardboard does not capture 100% of the x-axis vector force, then the balloon will move along its x-axis. Either way, I don't know how this experiment proves anything relevant to rockets.

Experiment #3
So you want a plastic bag drained of air attached to the exhaust of the balloon.

Two problems:
1. As soon as air enters the bag, it is no longer a vacuum.
2. Unless the bag is detached from the balloon (but you still want it to capture all the air) when it starts deflating (impossible?), the bag is now part of the "rocket" and the reason it won't move would be the same as the other experiment. Actually, it would be slightly different because this time the rocket did not let go of any exhaust at all because the air is still inside the rocket.

To simulate space, you need a vacuum structure that's significantly bigger than the balloon and encapsulates it completely.
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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:35 pm

Two trains running parallel at high speed and a guy jumping from one to another is possible depending on how far apart the two trains are.
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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:07 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDOAZRzyfwo
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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:56 pm

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/16390/does-the-rotation-of-the-earth-dramatically-affect-airplane-flight-time

Contrary to the video's title, modern physics can explain this phenomenon but it won't earn you any awards. However, if someone can prove rockets don't work in space, then a Nobel Prize is in order because the only way rockets won't work is if one of Newton's laws are invalid.

I do not have an interest in arguing for either round or flat. I just despise the spreading of falsehood, whatever that may be. When someone spreads false theories to lead the average person astray (such as the effect of free expansion on rockets), I despise that to the same degree as NASA deceiving the public or a pastor preaching a false doctrine. I've seen quite a few of these now, and it doesn't take a physics degree to see the flaws in their logic. Again, it may appear I'm defending the round theory but I'm not. I'm just interested in credible arguments instead of lies. On a serious note, I'm becoming more and more concerned that this "movement" that you see as being positive is a ploy to cause division among the truth community, not unlike catholics debating with evangelists debating with seventh day adventists, all just peeling another layer in an onion of lies to deceive the masses.

I'm all in support for better understanding the science for yourself. I just hope anyone who endeavours to do this bears the same distaste towards people who spread falsehood on all sides of the debate.

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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:28 pm

Your link does not answer the arguments the guy made. I am not even sure if you have spent the time to listen to the arguments he's made.

Nobel Price is not the authority of truth but rather the authority of a system. One must be in it's system to gain a reward. Case in point: Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize.

Define falsehood. Case in point: the institutional church says it's legalism and wrong to observe OT law. Falsehood depends on which camp you are in.

There are holes in Globe earth theory and there are holes in flat earth or any type of earth theories.

I said many times that I believe in a stationary earth which is the centre of universe. It does not contradict to the teachings in the Bible nor Einstein's theory of relativity.

My post here is for anyone who finds the topic interesting. No one is obliged to answer.



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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:16 pm

OK, I apologize about the link. It does not answer the questions in the video. But there is an answer and it's called the Coriolis effect.
https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=42656&t=problems-flying-north/south-due-to-the-earths-rotation.

I did watch the video from start to finish, and just to be sure I rewatched it again today.

I also just realized the person who posted the video is not the guy in the video. The guy in the video is probably genuine, asking questions and trying to understand. On the other hand, the person who posted the video is just making any claims and arguments he/she can to support his flat earth point of view. The latter is the type of person I take issue with.

Re: Nobel Prize, that is just in response to the video's title. It's incorrect because explaining that does not make one more famous than Einstein. My point is proving a rocket does not work (title of this thread) involves disproving one of Newton's laws. The Nobel Prize comes with a $1 million reward, and if Newton's laws can be readily disproven, someone would have done it. To further clarify, what I mean is that it's extremely unlikely that Newton's laws are invalid and that rockets do not work, so I would not make those claims lightly. In my opinion, it would be easier to somehow prove space doesn't exist and therefore rockets are fake than the other way around.

Falsehood - my definition in this context is the type that does not depend on which camp you are on but on the arguments one makes - either making claims that one knows is false or that one does not really understand, in order to push his/her point of view. Case in point: the people in both camps making poor arguments in the video's comments section.
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PostSubject: Re: Rocket does not work in space   Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:13 pm

Coriolis effect is one of the two problems, as I see it, in the video shown. At equator the earth is spinning at approximately 1000mph and at North Pole is near zero. Passenger plane speed is at most 700mph.
There were arguments that the plane is not affected by Coriolis and thus no need to compensate for the 1000mph difference because the atmosphere and the earth is a close system.

And this close system theory has it's own problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ3A4ptCuqc

And Coriolis effect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGE2-USFbwo
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