Does Iron sharpen iron?

As Proverbs 27:17 said, really?
Answer can be found at my other forum.

here is the link to eric's post in the other forum.
http://harvestnet.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4118&highlight=iron+sharpens+iron

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/using-a-steel.aspx

"Contrary to popular belief, a sharpening steel does not sharpen a knife, instead the purpose of a steel is to align the edge of the knife. "

very interesting..

Quote:
"The Hebrew and Greek of vs. 17 seems to suggest that the "sharpening" is an irritating event rather than a character-building event." from Scottsox

Sharpening is an irritating event OR a character-building event?

Any thought?

i have a question.. through sharpening, does that mean a problem must occur and you must face it regardless success of failure. Therefore, you will learn from this problem and be sharpened!?

cuz i can only think of situations where sharpening occur through "life issues/problem" we face...

or are you guys talkin about a different type of sharpening??

The original context was about one brother sharpening the other. I am not sure if it's possible because
a. iron couldn't sharpen iron of equal hardness - see dannie's answer and t's link.
b. never once did I see one convinced by another in equal (or lower) status with opposing opinions. One agrees only because he agrees in the first place or because of trust - which is not necessarily a good thing. I don't remember when the last time the Spirit was involved.
Sounds like ranting, eh?

Life issues and problems I have a lot. Man, do I have to tell you what they tasted like? Nevertheless, for believers they are His staff and rod. Hopefully they really are.

Heb 12:4-7 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

http://least-of-my-brothers.blogspot.com/2008/04/as-iron-sharpens-iron.html

The HarvestNET thread did not mention heating the iron first. If you heat iron, it becomes soft to a point where you can sharpen it with a metal hammer. This makes some sense. When a sword gets sharpened, it's always heated first, right? This is what I see in movies and games.

Not trying to support either side of the argument.. Just throwing that out.

Is hammering more a shaping process than sharpening? I don't know.
However, I just checked the original language. "Sharpens" is "to rejoice" or "to make glad". Now I don't have a clue.

Staying away from another iron is a good way to keep cool

My brother,

I absolutely believe that when friends come together in Yeshua's name and share truths found in the word, it is an absolute joy and not the type of "iron against iron becoming heated but neither benefitting" scenario that you sort of alluded to with that proverb.

1 Thes 5
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 13And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. 14Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. 15See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16Rejoice evermore. 17Pray without ceasing. 18In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19Quench not the Spirit. 20Despise not prophesyings. 21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

I especially like v21.

The Acts 17:11 verse that we know so well - it is said that "they received the word with all readiness of mind" and "searched the scriptures daily". I don't think it is a confrontation or heated battleground where they tore Paul apart, but rather they took it home and studied and came to an understanding that is rooted in the truth.

That's not what I'm implying.
I agree with what you quoted.
However, it would not be absolutely joy every time all the time, unless they are already in agreement - what I said in point b of my first post. It could be - what I said in the post prior.

The fact is, many shy away from discussions. Our friends, relatives and brothers and sisters who choose to go to "church" for example.
The question to ask is, do they know the truth and found the others not worthy to learn or are they afraid of being found not knowing the truth?

As iron sharpens iron. One would feel the heat when being sharpened and the reason some would choose to stay cool. That's what I meant.

It's not how the message is conveyed. It's how it's received.

For those of us who are a little dumb, maybe you need to convey your message simpler so we can receive it.

Well, I can only speak for myself but I think what you described in point b - believers with opposing views coming to agreement - I have seen that in abundance, all praise to our almighty king. Maybe not exactly like the way you described, maybe it requires going home and studying the word separately. But a discussion leading to discovering some truth, I have seen that and certainly it is the power of the holy spirit.

If each one who comes together is humbly seeking the truth, to edify one another, and to glorify the father rather than himself or herself, then I do not see disagreements in interpretation (for the time being) as enough to cause "heat".

"The question to ask is, do they know the truth and found the others not worthy to learn or are they afraid of being found not knowing the truth?"
If I may offer my humble opinion:
1. Let's not worry about those who are not eager to know the truth, i.e. do not listen to his voice even if they hear it.
2. Maybe we have put a stumbling block in front of someone by not exemplifying the fruits of the spirit, such that it is difficult for people to converse with us again. Speaking to myself here. In this case, this is on us.

There's nothing to do with being dumb or smart.
Agree or not it has to do with preconception of the matter and more so on the person.
I envy you having the fortune of coming to agreement in truth with others in abundance. I don't have that except for a handful of wackos on line.
It's definitely on me regarding stumbling blocks. This non-compromising character of mine always come across as puffed up. More often than not the criticism is not on the truth nor the knowledge but on the attitude but then preconception plays a big part.

I read what you post, do some studying, and come to a better understanding. Is that iron sharpening iron? I think so.

I believe I am getting confirmation that believers can have fellowship without needing to agree on everything, and that perhaps is how it is intended and an actualization of everyone having one teacher and all being brothers. First, there is the group we kept the feast with in BC - a group of people from different towns who don't even meet regularly and have varying interpretations on many subjects, but come together to celebrate the feasts and share in the truth. The second is the people online who have similar experiences. That makes two witnesses. All have come to know Yeshua and the importance in YHWH's laws, statutes, judgments, Sabbaths and appointed times separately by His guidance. These people know more Bible than we do and have found more truth than we have by going out and having fellowship with different groups.

If I were to meet myself from 5 years ago, my understanding would be very different and we would not be able to come to agreement. But it is the same faith, just at a different stage.

Remember you wanted a potluck where everyone brought what they learned and shared? Well, it would not work if someone brought something and others just criticised how bad it tastes and spit it out. It would also not work if everyone thinks their own dish is the best and wants others to just cook the same dish. A new friends of ours in Kelowna, a nice lady who shared with us a lot of what she understood and is quite humble, told us that if she shared something at a meeting and people challenged her, then she wouldn't ever want to share again. Challenging someone, making them defend themselves is very different from sharing your views and politely suggesting what they could have missed.

I have more to say on this subject..

To clarify, I'm not addressing anything in particular. I'm just sharing what I'm beginning to learn recently about fellowship.

Two three points:
a. For believers don't meet frequently, may be they have not given themselves enough opportunities or known enough of each other to fight yet. Just may be. Imagine if we meet once a year from the get go we would have met only 14 times so far.

b. Challenge or correction might depend on how one perceives.

c. Don't we all cook the same dish and let each other be the judge based on the Master Judge's written standard?

On the other hand, I have not tasted dishes from anyone in the group for the longest time, except yours. Some might have brought take outs. Is it bad to say the take outs taste awful that he/she should consider buying from somewhere else next time? It does not mean I don't appreciate the effort of bringing.

11/25 Appendix to point a.: What I meant to say was there is a thing called honeymoon.

a. The believers I'm referring to meet 2-3 weeks per year for the spring and fall feasts, and have monthly meetings as much as possible. Some smaller groups meet weekly and have bible studies. Some have been doing this for 10-20 years. While almost none agree on every topic, they are able to cope and have much more to gain from meeting together than not. For example, some became feast keepers after hearing from others even though they were skeptical at first.

They are also no strangers to the problems of differing views, especially with people who try to infiltrate and preach something false. It is something they pray and think about. What I witnessed is some great fellowship despite certain topics that they have debated and have decided to put aside. One brother shared his thought with us that living the life of a truth seeker meant getting used to everything we read/hear being truth mixed with error, and we have to extract the truth from that instead of throwing it out.

b. Often it is the delivery more than the perception. I have not seen anyone who takes well to a harsh rebuke. I can say I have some experience with this. Often I'm well intentioned but people want to punch me.

Paul taught to rebuke gently. Yeshua was gentle except to the hypocrites. One example is in teaching the samaritan woman and making her convicted of her own sins without being judgmental.

Back to challenging someone's views specifically - when someone shares a view, I don't think they are to be on the spot and held accountable to defend it. My opinion is that type of debate does not exemplify the kind of love towards one another, truthfulness, tenderness, lack of anger, desire to build each other up taught by Paul and others. Truth can be upheld without sacrificing those things. We are dealing with brothers and sisters, not pharisees.

c. Problem is we all think we know the judge's written standard and have consequently cooked a dish that we think best qualifies the judge's standard.

What you described there sounded like a near dream fellowship.

The points you've made were towards what we had, weren't they?

What is considered harsh? Were we harsh towards each other? Towards seekers? Seekers who would only take comforting words detaching from reality? Why didn't anyone say anything when such happened or afterwards?
Or can you give examples of what we had and how you would have done?

What is considered putting someone on the spot? Can you give examples from what we had and how you would have done?

Was there a know all who always thought he's the best in the group? Is questioning come across as being a know all? Or can you give examples of what we had?

Paul taught to rebuke gently: would you provide verses? Do you consider his rebukes towards Peter and Galatians gentle?

boyscout wrote:

The points you've made were towards what we had, weren't they?

Not really, just in general.

boyscout wrote:

What is considered harsh?

In my opinion, when someone deals in a way that they are not able to accept in return. Or someone is judgmental without judging themselves with the same measure. Matt 7:2,4,12

boyscout wrote:

What is considered putting someone on the spot? Can you give examples from what we had and how you would have done?

An example is you sharing a view and I challenging it and taking it apart from every angle. But you shared something with me for my benefit. You should not be obligated to defend yourself.

If I have a differing insight, I should share it truthfully and modestly for the purpose of building each other up. If I don't, I should ponder it or keep to myself.

Our concern should be to share what we earnestly consider to be truth, not hypotheticals for the sake of argument or winning a debate.

boyscout wrote:

Was there a know all who always thought he's the best in the group? Is questioning come across as being a know all? Or can you give examples of what we had?

Yea maybe that was me, or no.

boyscout wrote:

Paul taught to rebuke gently: would you provide verses? Do you consider his rebukes towards Peter and Galatians gentle?

- Gal 6:1-10, 2 Tim 2:24-26
- Paul ended his letters with words of encouragement and comfort
- Re:Peter, you have a point. I need to think about that but I believe he did it for the benefit of the others.
- Those who rebuke should use the same measure towards themselves.

Noted your previously points were not pertinent to what we had.

Regarding being harsh and putting someone on the spot: I used the Galatians to illustrate that it's about perception. Would Peter think that Paul put him on the spot. Why not? After all Peter was reputable and was one of the pillars of the church. Was Paul being harsh to the Galatians? He called them foolish twice. Why would the  Galatians bother to continue, let alone finish, reading his letter?

Winning a debate for the sake of winning: it should never be the purpose as the Judge is always watching. After the presidential debate I despise to use this word. Perhaps the right term to use is deposition as in a trial or dispute as in a court.

Know all: I was asking about an example. I didn't ask who that person was because as far as I could remember everyone seemed to be happy to be a know nothing to avoid any trouble.

Rebuke: perhaps you were referring to restore, teach, train or instruct which I agree that we must be gentle but I was referring to rebuke G2008 which is not too gentle in it's 29 times of uses in the New Testament.

Not necessarily disagreeing, just adding some thoughts.

G2008 also means to honour or to restrain. Not all uses in the NT are of the kind you are referring to. Only one verse advises to do so and it is given to Timothy (2Ti 4:2), "with all longsuffering and doctrine".

Neither of the two examples you gave are related to someone sharing something and being required to defend themselves. As I said, if I think what a brother said was wrong and I'm quite certain of it, I can share my view with truth and modesty and that is better for building that brother up than telling him he is wrong to his face. Not saying that this happens a lot in our group. But I have not seen anyone who likes being told they are wrong. Not you, not me. Over the years we have taken a liking to "challenging" things and we support this attitude with scripture, but I don't think that is the way in Acts 17:11, 1Th 5:21, 1Cor 14:29. Perception matters, so does delivery. I think I've received this advice from you a few times.

Eph 4:15-16 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

"speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another"

Makes me think - if a part of my body is sick, I would want to choose the best treatment that is least painful and has the least side effects as possible.

Rebuke: Not that I suggested that rebuke should be harsh or not gentle or anything else but my argument was against the idea that Paul taught to rebuke gently or that rebuke should be gentle.

Rebuke G2008: although blueletterbible's outline of biblical usage includes "to show honor to, to honor", I don't see the 29 times use of this word in the Bible showing such.

Reprove G1651: this word is used in 2 Timothy 4:2 also. It was not used "gently" in it's 17 times appearance in the Bible.

Exhort G3870: also used in 2 Timothy 4:2 and is the only word showing gentleness.

On another note, I thought you said those examples you have given previously were not pertinent to what we had but
a. you are bringing up one of the examples again and
b. you said "not saying that this happens a lot in our group.
So
a. it is pertinent to our group, isn't it?
b. our approaches in challenging were inappropriate, weren't they?
Would you give an example and let me know how we could have handled better?

Acts 17:11 is a good illustration of perception and delivery. Did Paul and his company deliver the message differently that the Bereans accepted but not the Jews in Thessalonica?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 1 Corinthians 14:29 taught to prove and judge/examine all things but it does not give much regarding perception and delivery. Please elaborate.

Ephesians 4:15-16 again is it pertinent to what we had? That we spoke either no truth or without love?
Would you give an actual example and let me know how we could have done better?